|
|
Post by Admin on Apr 15, 2016 8:27:18 GMT -5
=============================== General Banter =============================== Message: 3/36 Posted Author Starting XP Questions Apr 15 2016 Heather ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ With new players getting catch up XP in chargen (as per 5/33) does that stack with the chargen beats that they can get by filling out the beatsheet questionaires? ============================================================================== +bbread 3/37 =============================== General Banter =============================== Message: 3/37 Posted Author Starting XP and Beat Ratios Apr 15 2016 Ophelia ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I'd also like to know how this policy relates to the existing beat to XP ratio. (+news costs) As far as I understand, the escalating number of beats it takes to equal 1 XP is a self-limiting factor that gives advantage to new, low XP characters. They can make purchases and advance more quickly in learning a new discipline or gaining the next dot of a merit. What costs Old Vampire 9 beats costs New Vampire only 5. Is this proposal going to do away or tinker with the beats to XP cost, or replace the beatsheet? The tiered system is staying as it is for xp spends. The 35 XP is per the book and will help new players create PCs that are a little better than basic newly fledged neonates. The beatsheets off the wiki will always be available for 'free' beats and yes, 'stacks'. You can also get 'free' beats by playing a pure clan over a bloodline, if in the future you choose to go a bloodline those will be taken back.%r%rThe staff has a bigger discussion to be made in the future about other possible tweeks to encourage a 'middle ground' and otherwise help the flow of the game's obviously huge power shift. =============================== General Banter =============================== Message: 3/38 Posted Author XP inflation Apr 15 2016 Ovidio ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Hello! I'm posting this here mostly for public discussion. I'm fairly neutral on the new XP setup, but I do have a few questions: Is this a permanent adjustment for new players? Will it taper back down once a reasonable middle ground has been reached? How will XP inflation affect the mechanics of the game as well as its interaction with RP? With those questions up, I do admittedly have an issue I'd like to pose. With this dramatic increase in XP, some of us who've been in this for the long haul and fought, shaped, and really worked to nurture RfK and maintain its playstyle kind of feel like much of our work was for naught. Personally, I'm more a fan of RP over XP, but mechanically, this could dramatically shift the games environment in new and possibly unexpected ways which concerns me given we all want to keep the feel of RfK the same as its always been. I know the staff is working very hard to make sure this game is fun for everyone and I'm definitely not saying this is necessarily a bad idea or whatever, just that I have a few concerns and would like to hear more on this. Thanks!  Ovidio The Great Grumplord |
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Apr 15, 2016 8:34:42 GMT -5
So the highest players have over 1200 beats, the math I don't have on me this second and hopefully one of the other staffers can chip in with that. I believe that the 35 XP was something like 10% of the xp floating around out there.
I understand your frustration about not having every single player grandfathered in with this but something had to be done for us to be able to retain any new players without them feeling terribly overwhelmed. Getting closer to the book rules with the 35 XP will help this.
Allowing you, the player, have control of your rp and your beatsheet submissions, weekly and one time, will help as well. There will be incentives for everyone in the future.
Also keep in mind that older players automatically have the advantage of having more rp partners to play with, new people are coming in with zero additional xp, zero support, zero 'friends' unless they come in with their own friends and their own clic, it's hard to be a new player here and we're trying to make RfK an encouraging place to come create a PC.
|
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Apr 15, 2016 8:35:13 GMT -5
Oh and yes, the 35 XP will be staying indefinitely for new PCs.
|
|
groth
Tasty Mortal
Posts: 9 
|
Post by groth on Apr 15, 2016 9:19:33 GMT -5
You could implement an even harsher beat:xp scaling starting at 1300 beats (200xp) to prevent the old timers from getting completely silly. I would have preferred harsher scaling even at 550 (100xp) but doing that retroactively will be a nightmare. I don't think it's a good idea to hand out too much xp to starting characters as they'll miss out on the character growth experience.
|
|
|
|
Post by jaeger on Apr 15, 2016 9:28:24 GMT -5
Okay, I'm going to weigh in here. This is a bad idea. I know from the outside it looks 'shiny' to get free XP at the start of a game, but this is the purpose of the beatsheets. Not only that, the beatsheets are a better idea, because it brings up the level and quality of players on RfK. A player must put in a small amount of work to research and understand the theme and concept of their character. This has never been a place where you get on grid, then start at the top of the totem pole. The beauty of RfK is that you can work your way up through RP and dedication. There is even a place for those who are less active, but that's not in primary positions, which really NEED to be held by active players.
If a player fills out every beatsheet, they will receive a little over 30 XP to spend. This will put them on a better playing field than a brand new fanger. The XP 'gap' between characters is only there for maybe at most a month or two. RfK was not created as a game for 'everyone,' which is why there is an appeal for many players. If you want to help players get connected and feel important on the grid, get Clan Rosters and Covenant Rosters together. Let the Primogen and Priscus know when someone comes in who is part of their clan and covenant. That's where the connections start. When I was brand new, it was having those connections with the clan that folded me into the game. It was the current members of the clan making an effort to RP with me. Add a section to the weekly beats for: +beat welcome - had a scene with Newbie Joe. Let that the newbie status last 2 weeks for each new character to the grid. That will get them RP and welcome them FAR FAR more than a handful of XP. Plus, it holds to the nature and core of what Kingsmouth is about.
I have played on games with massive XP gains. In my opinion, they are not as good as Kingsmouth. The XP means nothing. I can create a massive powerful character, but unless I get connections to others on grid??? It means nothing. I'm still a nobody. I still don't know my character well or how that character fits on the grid. Please please please do not go through with this decision. Find ways to encourage the 'old folks' to play with the 'new folks,' and vise versa. This was the beauty of the 'match up' games we had. RfK was highly involved in encouraging RP. It was also important for new characters to learn to trust and lean on the older characters... to work cooperatively with them. When I see massive XP handed out to make everyone 'equally powerful,' I tend to see more PKs and more IC clashing. There is a beauty in the Kingsmouth game in that we get beats for story 'suckage.' Go frenzy on someone?? Take a beat! Get a terrible condition put on you?? Take a beat!
This isn't a game to 'win,' but to create a story. Everyone starts at the starting point and works their way up. That's the caliber of player Kingsmouth is known for. It's also life. We all have to start at the bottom of the career ladder and move up. Nice thing about Kingsmouth?? You can move up quickly within 2-3 months if you get out and RP. In life, it could take 10 years to do the same.
Please do not respond to the "overwhelmed" by handing out beats. Respond with: having trouble?? Here are 3 key players to go RP with. If you can get scenes with them, squee them and they will do the same for you. Go claim beats for scenes: Here is our beat policy: +help +beats. Fill out your beatsheets and you'll have 30XP right there! Give it time. This is a different type of game. We're still in soft RP.
|
|
|
|
Post by harven on Apr 15, 2016 9:57:15 GMT -5
I put a job in. I just deleted a whole lot more in response to what is here. The TLDR, this is not a wise decision. You want to retain new players, trust the community to be the community that RfK has always had - and get the rest of the game working. That will keep new players. You don't need free xp incentives, when RfK already has systems in place to address this and a method to get some free starting beats coming out of chargen.
|
|
|
|
Post by harven on Apr 15, 2016 10:00:22 GMT -5
Okay, I'm going to weigh in here. This is a bad idea. I know from the outside it looks 'shiny' to get free XP at the start of a game, but this is the purpose of the beatsheets. Not only that, the beatsheets are a better idea, because it brings up the level and quality of players on RfK. A player must put in a small amount of work to research and understand the theme and concept of their character. This has never been a place where you get on grid, then start at the top of the totem pole. The beauty of RfK is that you can work your way up through RP and dedication. There is even a place for those who are less active, but that's not in primary positions, which really NEED to be held by active players. If a player fills out every beatsheet, they will receive a little over 30 XP to spend. This will put them on a better playing field than a brand new fanger. The XP 'gap' between characters is only there for maybe at most a month or two. RfK was not created as a game for 'everyone,' which is why there is an appeal for many players. If you want to help players get connected and feel important on the grid, get Clan Rosters and Covenant Rosters together. Let the Primogen and Priscus know when someone comes in who is part of their clan and covenant. That's where the connections start. When I was brand new, it was having those connections with the clan that folded me into the game. It was the current members of the clan making an effort to RP with me. Add a section to the weekly beats for: +beat welcome - had a scene with Newbie Joe. Let that the newbie status last 2 weeks for each new character to the grid. That will get them RP and welcome them FAR FAR more than a handful of XP. Plus, it holds to the nature and core of what Kingsmouth is about. I have played on games with massive XP gains. In my opinion, they are not as good as Kingsmouth. The XP means nothing. I can create a massive powerful character, but unless I get connections to others on grid??? It means nothing. I'm still a nobody. I still don't know my character well or how that character fits on the grid. Please please please do not go through with this decision. Find ways to encourage the 'old folks' to play with the 'new folks,' and vise versa. This was the beauty of the 'match up' games we had. RfK was highly involved in encouraging RP. It was also important for new characters to learn to trust and lean on the older characters... to work cooperatively with them. When I see massive XP handed out to make everyone 'equally powerful,' I tend to see more PKs and more IC clashing. There is a beauty in the Kingsmouth game in that we get beats for story 'suckage.' Go frenzy on someone?? Take a beat! Get a terrible condition put on you?? Take a beat! This isn't a game to 'win,' but to create a story. Everyone starts at the starting point and works their way up. That's the caliber of player Kingsmouth is known for. It's also life. We all have to start at the bottom of the career ladder and move up. Nice thing about Kingsmouth?? You can move up quickly within 2-3 months if you get out and RP. In life, it could take 10 years to do the same. Please do not respond to the "overwhelmed" by handing out beats. Respond with: having trouble?? Here are 3 key players to go RP with. If you can get scenes with them, squee them and they will do the same for you. Go claim beats for scenes: Here is our beat policy: +help +beats. Fill out your beatsheets and you'll have 30XP right there! Give it time. This is a different type of game. We're still in soft RP. This is a bunch of awesome eloquently written. |
|
|
|
Post by gregory on Apr 15, 2016 10:26:58 GMT -5
I'm absolutely against this. I didn't get given a crap ton of xp just for showing up to the game, and no one else should. I'm sorry, if the players aren't interested in staying on RfK without being handed a HUGE amount of xp. This equates to 1/3rd of the XP I've got on my sheet. How is that even VAGUELY fair? I'm sorry, if you want to hand -all- players a bonus 35 xp and say that from now on players start with 35 xp to spend, that's stupid also but at least fair to all people.
Leave it like it was, and tell people that they shouldn't expect to be badass the first day they show up. If they want to be twinked out super monsters the first day they show up, they need to go somewhere else with that crap anyway.
|
|
Ovidio
Tasty Mortal
The Great Grumplord
Posts: 6
|
Post by Ovidio on Apr 15, 2016 11:11:50 GMT -5
I have an alternative idea which would allow players to rocket up quickly! What if we looked back at diminishing returns and give a starting bump?
We all know the normal xp to beat ratio is 1:5 and as you increase to 250 beats and its multiples, the ratio increases.
Why not look at this in the inverse and instead of giving 35 XP outright, we reduce the ratio in the beginning? Specifically, is we reduce the ratio to 1:4 up to 125 xp, that's a skyrocket up to 30 XP quickly plus some change. Then it goes up to the normal 1:5 until 250 and progress as normal. This would be a notable discount of sorts and simultaneously still encourage hard work!
|
|
|
|
Post by PhinnyFace on Apr 15, 2016 11:29:13 GMT -5
I prefer Ovidio's idea. Really, on the game, even with an RP focus, the dice matter. The dice and stats govern how I play my character. I've scraped and worked very hard, and I've elevated my character quite a ways from when he hit the grid. When I arrived, I was at the bottom of the totem pole, and I played a lot, I contributed to the game, and my character got to advance. I'm against this rule, quite firmly. If we want to lower the ratio to start with, that's a better solution in my opinion... but really, to me, everyone has the same opportunity. We all started here at 0 at some point. Those of us who've been here have gathered friends and we've gathered enemies. We've accumulated debts and windfalls through IC actions. The notion what we put in time and effort for now getting handed out to others does cheapen the accomplishment for me.
When I joined the game, another character, with 100s of beats in advantage over mine, targeted him. This was a highly aggressive character. And what did I do? I tried to use cunning and I figured out how to apply pressure back, however I could. Older characters also have more to lose. I didn't complain or threaten to quit because someone who had earned it was in a better position than me. Obviously, I think that's the way it should be handled.
|
|
|
|
Post by lordbelh on Apr 15, 2016 11:36:38 GMT -5
I think it is a bad decision.
There is already a mechanic to cut down the gap between new and old characters; the diminishing returns of beats. It was good enough the entire lifetime of the old game, and I think it is more than good enough in a reboot. If you wanted everybody on equal footing, the thing to do was to wipe all characters.
Having new characters enter the game with 66XP is disruptive. The consequences is a massive power-shift downward in the pyramid. While a group of new characters could always come into the game, and with a bit of smart thinking and play, make a name for themselves and seize positions, if you start with 66XP you don't really need to do any of that work. You can simply app right away with a character that can challenge any of the powers-that-be through pure power plays. RfK always rewarded subtlety, but you can't learn that if your characters never need to pass through the learning curve.
I didn't even bother with my beatsheets for months, and I still enormous influence from pretty much the get-go. This at a time when the game was full of very powerful characters. And knowing that I couldn't directly challenge those old timers was part of the game's appeal.
Currently we're suffering from the fact that we don't have a functioning soft-power game system in place. This makes the stark XP difference pretty noticeable. The thing to do is getting that up and going, not to throw more and more xp inflation into the game.
|
|
groth
Tasty Mortal
Posts: 9
|
Post by groth on Apr 15, 2016 12:05:29 GMT -5
Currently we're suffering from the fact that we don't have a functioning soft-power game system in place. This makes the stark XP difference pretty noticeable. The thing to do is getting that up and going, not to throw more and more xp inflation into the game. Yes. The most important thing to get new players involved is to have the soft-power game system for them to get involved with. |
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Apr 15, 2016 13:34:23 GMT -5
Thank you for your constructive feedback instead of 'boo it sucks'.
|
|
|
|
Post by Manon on Apr 15, 2016 20:32:19 GMT -5
Boo, it sucks! Heh, just kidding, Uitz. Had to go there. Seriously though, I think 35 incentive XP in addition to all the beat sheets is a little much. I probably would have gone with a more conservative figure. 15 or so, perhaps. I think the old-timers who have spoken already have made good points about the character development and the certain actually *fun* challenges that starting off as a lower XP-character can glean. I LOVED starting Manon off as this timid creature that has now finally moved into her own. That said, I think Ovi's idea is sheer brilliance. But don't tell him I said so. Hee. |
|
|
|
Post by roberta on Apr 15, 2016 21:46:27 GMT -5
Honestly... this is a big no-go. I agree with all of the previous points about how we all started and worked our way up. Nevertheless... My BIGGER problem with this is the fact the game CANNOT afford to grow bigger this fast, and offering incentives for new players is a tactic for a mature game looking to add a few new players, not a game brought back from the dead that requires a LOT of TLC to meet the expectations of the prior player-base, NEVERMIND new players who are lured in by the promises of Kingsmouth being back. If new players cannot handle coming in the same way we ALL did, RPing regularly, building connections and just enjoying the game for what it is ... then this game is not for them.
PS Beat Sheets are by far the greatest way for players to get extra xp. They are a win-win for both staff (Who get to get a better gist of the player and character from their writing), and for the Player (Who gets to learn who their character is by answering them).
|
|
